A Christian Response to the Sexual Revolution

(The following post is pretty close to a transcript of the lesson I shared with our Sunday School class at Sevier Heights Baptist Church on July 29, 2018.  Feel free to copy, print, or share it as you feel led!)

 

A Christian Response to the Sexual Revolution

 

Introduction

The sexual revolution in America has brought us to a very sad and frustrating point. Sometimes we feel like Jesus when he looked over Jerusalem and wept. That’s why I put that verse on the screen.  “And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it,” (Lu 19:41 ESV)

And it can be very maddening and frustrating that at the same time we Christians are trying to figure out how to show the love of Christ more clearly to people, we are often accused of being hateful and bigoted.

But actually, there are several different reactions that some people who are in the LGBT community have toward us Christians.

But first, we should notice that it’s a little bit awkward to try to even name the revolution. In the beginning, it seems like we were primarily just talking about “gays” or maybe “gays and the lesbians.”  Later the abbreviation LGBT became popular. (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender) Some use LGBTQ (Q = Queer). Others use LGBTQ+ (the “+” implies there are other categories). Recently I saw this abbreviation. LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual). And, interestingly,  some have criticized that last one, even though it has 11 letters, as not being adequate because it still leaves some who are part of the sexual Revolution out. It isn’t comprehensive enough. So it can get quite complex.

Some, but not all, of these people are very militant, hostile, and angry and are pushing hard for the sexual revolution to continue and expand.

But some are not so much angry as they are very fearful of us who identify ourselves as conservative, Bible-believing Christians. They have been told that we hate them. They have been told that we are arrogant, hypocritical, religious bigots. They have been told that we hope that they all burn in hell.

Many of them really do believe that their sexual orientation or gender identification is simply part of who they are, and that if we tell them that God is not pleased with what they are doing or that God wants them to repent, in their minds, they are convinced, that it’s the same as if we said to an African-American that God wants him to stop being black. In their minds, it’s just “who they are.”

So to many people, for us to say that any of the behavior associated with the LGBT movement is sinful, is the same as saying it’s sinful to be African-American, and obviously that’s just plain bigotry.

So we are in a dilemma. There are going to be some, it seems to me, to whom we will seem very hateful and unloving no matter what we say or how we say it, unless we totally agree with them that their behavior is normal and good. So if we sincerely believe that their behavior is not normal and not good, it seems that there is no way to escape the label of being hateful, unloving, and bigoted. And I think that’s very sad, because it stops a lot of communication.

But, of course, Jesus warned us that if they hated Him, they will hate us too. So we shouldn’t be terribly surprised. But here we are.

Another sad fact that complicates this is that there are people who call themselves Christians who really do seem to be full of hate, full of anger, full of venom and bigotry toward people who are part of the sexual revolution. Of course, that makes things much worse.

But even if we realize that there are some that will call us bigots no matter what, unless we agree with them, we still must make every effort to love them. Jesus said,

“27 ¶  “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28  bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.” (Luke 6:27-28)

And if we have the opportunity to have conversations with those who identify as being part of the LGBT community (in some cases they are part of our family), we need to pray really hard that we can know how to show them love and compassion and grace, while not compromising what God teaches in His Word. And that can be a serious challenge.

Sometimes, we may need to just say, “Listen, I’m really interested in hearing your story.” And then we may need to just bite our tongues and just try to be good listeners, while maybe asking questions that will encourage them to keep talking.

Or “Listen, we may not be able to agree about lots of things, but I really am interested in hearing your perspective. I want to understand as much as I can.  So, please, talk to me.” And then just listen.

We may not need to share everything we believe the Bible teaches at one time. There’s a time for listening, possibly without much response at all, and then praying for God’s wisdom in how to respond the next time we talk.

The point I’m trying to make is that if we are going to have productive conversations with those who are sympathetic to the sexual revolution, it’s going to be really hard for us if their starting perception about us is, “You are a harsh, unloving, hypocritical, hateful, bigoted Christian. You don’t really love me. You hate me. You don’t give a flip about me as a person. I’m totally disgusting to you. You don’t really care what’s going on inside me. You just want to try to force me to change.”

It can be really hard for us to convince others that we love them. And we need to accept that we may never be able to convince them. But we must do all in our power to try–without compromising our stand on Scripture.

If we had a friend who we knew was an alcoholic, and if our friend insisted that taking a shot of whiskey first thing when he got up every morning was the best treatment for his alcoholism, we would do everything in our power to lovingly convince him otherwise. And if he said, “You don’t love me. If you loved me you would accept me as I am.” (by which he would mean, accept me and accept my behavior), we would say, “I think someday you will realize that I really do love you. And I wouldn’t be a loving friend if I didn’t tell you the truth about your bad decisions.”

Having said that, whether we have the opportunity to share it right away it not, we really need to understand what the Bible says about these things. And we need to understand what some homosexuals who self-identify as Christian believers are saying about what they believe the Bible really teaches.

We need to understand the truth. And we need to be ready and willing to share the truth in love. But we need lots of wisdom about when and how to share it.

So let me just share a few of the Scriptures about some of these things. and then I will try to share what some in the sexual revolution have to say about these verses.

There is a strong biblical basis for what the church has always taught and believed about both of these issues.

It’s important for us to realize that there really are members of the LGBT community who call themselves Bible-believing Christians. They say that the church has gotten it all  wrong in the past. And that we need to take a fresh look at the Bible. So I’m going to mention some of the interpretations and arguments that have been offered by some in the LGBT community who claim to be Christians.

But listen, this can all get very confusing. It can be a little difficult to tease things apart.

For example. there was a meeting scheduled for this past week in St. Louis called Revoice. I assume it took place.  It was sponsored by some churches associated with the PCA. The PCA is a conservative, Bible-believing Presbyterian denomination. And this meeting was designed for people who felt like they would be part of the LGBT community, except that they are committed to Scripture and to a traditional view of Biblical sexuality and gender. But, to emphasize their struggles with their own sexuality and gender, they are trying to hold on to the LGBT label. So they might call themselves, “Gay Christians.” But, at the same time, they are not trying to say that homosexual behavior is ok. They recognize that homosexual activity is sinful activity.

Now there may be something positive about that. But I think it’s still misguided. I think it’s dangerous. If a man has struggled with drug addiction, and he comes to Christ, he’s not called a “drug addiction Christian.” If he’s struggled with stealing, he’s not called a “theft Christian.”We don’t call some Christians “adulterer Christians.”  We are all just “Christians.” When they seem to want to make their sexual temptations part of their identity, it seems that they are coming dangerously close to normalizing something that God calls sin. We identify with Christ, not with our sinful tendencies.

Of course, there is a difference between what we might call “orientation” and actual behavior. There is a huge difference between “temptation” and “sin.” But we don’t want to imply that an orientation toward something God calls sin is just part of who we are. God changes us into new Creatures in Christ. And there are many who will testify that “I once was a slave to alcohol. Now I am free.” or “I once was a slave to pornography. Now I am free.” or “I once was a slave to my homosexual desires. Now I am free.”

So those people at the Revoice Conference say that they are not practicing homosexuals. They just have homosexual temptations.

But there are others in the sexual revolution who call themselves Bible-believing Christians who have decided that it’s OK to be a practicing  homosexual. They would  say, “I’m a practicing homosexual. But I’m also a conservative, Bible-believing Christian.” And there are  quite a few other Christians who are beginning to agree with their position.

There are people out there who are convinced that we have had it wrong all along about what the Bible teaches about homosexuality.

We need to be familiar with their arguments and have a clear understanding of what God actually teaches in His Word.

Sexual Revolution Argument #1

Some of them will say, “When the Bible seems to be condemning homosexual behavior, it really isn’t condemning homosexual behavior that is between two homosexual adults who are in a covenant commitment with each other (marriage). It’s condemning predatory homosexuality (like rape), or it’s condemning promiscuous homosexuality (having many partners), or it’s condemning  homosexual pederasty (homosexual activity with kids). And they will point out that in the Roman world, these were the only kinds of homosexuality–predatory homosexuality, promiscuous homosexuality, and homosexual pederasty. So that’s all that Paul was condemning.

If they are right, then the church has been wrong for 2000 years. And that’s always a real possibility. Just because something has  been taught for a long time, doesn’t mean it’s true.

But if they are wrong, and I believe they are wrong,  and if it really is true that all homosexual behavior really is sin, then that means that it will inevitably bring bad outcomes. Bad outcomes to the people involved. Bad outcomes to their families. Bad outcomes to future generations. Bad outcomes to a nation. Sin always brings a costly wage.

So let’s look at a few of passages of Scripture.

First, let’s  back off and just try to get God’s overall perspective of the whole issue.

“27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28  And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”” (Genesis 1:27-28)

God created something very beautiful when he created us male and female and created us to be sexual beings and commanded us, in the context of a marriage covenant, to have lots of babies.

And of course in the New Testament, God makes it clear that marriage pictures our relationship with Christ.

“31  “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32  This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.” (Ephesians 5:31-32)

So it just makes sense that Satan, using our fallen human nature, and the fact that we are living in a fallen, Genesis 3 world,  will do anything he can to distort God’s beautiful creation of gender and sex. Sadly, many people have simply decided that they have a better idea than God.

Now, let’s look at a few specific passages.

Just remember, that nothing is said in any of these passages to imply that only certain kinds of homosexual activity are prohibited. Each passage simply refers to homosexual behavior in general. To limit the meaning to predatory sex, pederasty, or promiscuity is a form of what we call “eisogesis.” Eisogesis is bad Bible interpretation. When we do eisogesis, we read into the text what we want it to say.  Instead, we must simply read out of the text what it actually says.

There are two passages  (1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6) where Paul uses a very interesting Greek word for homosexual behavior. The word is “arsenokoites.”

“Understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality [arsenokoites], enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,” (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality [arsenokoites] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God..  And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (1Co 6:9-11)

And it turns out that, according to Greek scholars, arsenokoites is a word that that Paul (I think inspired by the Holy Spirit) “invented.” What Paul did was to combine the Greek words used  in the Septuagint (an early Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament) to translate the words “a man lying with a man as a woman” in Leviticus 20:13.

“If a man lies with a male [arseno koites]  as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)

So when Paul uses the word “arsenokoites” he is demonstrating that he’s not thinking about Roman culture. He’s thinking about the Old Testament. In particular he’s thinking about Lev 20:13.

This also might be a good place  to point out that the correct translation of arsenokoites is not “men who have homosexual temptations.” Instead it is, “men who engage in homosexual behavior.” or, as the ESV has it, “men who practice homosexuality.”)

But the point is nowhere in Scripture is there any suggestion that some homosexual behavior might be acceptable or that there might be an exception to the laws condemning homosexual behavior.

So some same-sex marriage advocates have tried to argue that in Paul’s day the only homosexual behavior that he witnessed was pederastic, predatory, or promiscuous, because the loving kind of homosexual behavior is actually good. And, they argue,  Paul would not have condemned what is good. But that’s really a form of begging the question. When we do that we are assuming that some forms of homosexual behavior are good, in spite of the lack of any Biblical evidence that that might be the case.

Also, Kevin DeYoung, in his book, What Does the Bible Really Teach about Homosexuality? Makes it clear that it is simply not the case that all homosexual behavior in ancient Rome was predatory, pederastic, or promiscuous.

It’s also significant that  Paul also prohibits lesbianism in Romans 1. In condemning lesbianism, it seems very unlikely that he has in mind just pederasty, or predatory sex, or promiscuous sex.

“26  For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27  and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28  And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.” (Romans 1:26-28)

Also, if Paul had pederasty in mind, there was a Greek word he could have used: paiderastia. (Obviously, paiderastia is the word from which we get our English word pederasty.)

And, if he wanted to make exceptions, certainly Paul could have added words to the effect of: “When I use this word (arsenokoites), I am not talking about two adult men in a long term loving relationship.” There is nothing in the Bible that even hints that Paul’s readers would, or should, have taken it that way.

The only way that advocates of homosexual behavior can use the Bible to make their case is to assume that all homosexual behavior in Paul’s day was pederastic, predatory, or promiscuous, and that the loving, life-long, committed kind of homosexuality just did not exist.

But  Kevin DeYoung points out that there is a book, Homosexuality in Greece and Rome: A Sourcebook of Basic Documents, written by Thomas K Hubbard (who is not a Christian) that undermines that thinking. His point is that there was not a simple pattern for homosexual behavior in ancient Greece and Rome, any more than there is today.  There were all kinds of behavior–from what we might call “bad” behavior to what we might call “loving” behavior. And lifelong same-sex relationships were part of that mix.

So The bottom line is, the Bible does not condemn some kinds of homosexual behavior and approve other kinds. The Bible makes it clear that all homosexual behavior is sin.

Sexual Revolution Argument #2

Another Biblical argument that is being made is that there are already many Biblical commands that ancient people took seriously, but today, we Christians ignore them.

So, logically, we can ignore the prohibitions against homosexual behavior as well.

For example, we ignore the command not to touch a woman having her period (Lev 15:19) or  the command not to wear a garment made of two different fabrics (Lev 19:19). So, they say, we can place the commands against homosexual behavior in the same categories. The idea is that if we can ignore those other strange commands, we can ignore this one too.

This second argument shows a lack of understanding of the different kinds of laws that we find in the Old Testament. Christians have always recognized that there are Biblical commands that are no longer binding on believers.

Some commands (e.g. animal sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood) were meant only for a time to point men to the coming Messiah. When He came, they ceased. We no longer sacrifice lambs.

Other commands (e.g., circumcision, dietary laws, sabbath laws) were given to keep Israel separate and distinct from other nations since God intended them to be the vehicle through which He would give the world His Word and His Son. God used these commands to keep Israel separated and, when they were scattered,  to keep them from being absorbed into other people groups. God used these commands to keep them from losing their identity.

Still other commands (e.g., Don’t enter the house to collect a debt–Deuteronomy 24:10) are part of a group of civil commands that God gave Moses in order to structure the early Jewish society so that it could function well. There were laws having to do with regulating divorce, laws about inheritance, and laws about landmarks, among others. These laws correspond to our laws against speeding or our zoning laws or our housing regulation laws.

Finally, there are commands that are part of God’s great eternal moral law. (e.g., laws against stealing, murdering, coveting, committing adultery, bearing false witness, idolatry, etc.)

So The real question then becomes, “Can we discern to which category the commands against homosexual behavior belong?”

Well, from 1 Corinthians 6, we know that it falls under the same category as fornication, idolatry, adultery, theft, coveting, drunkenness, and extortion. Homosexual behavior is listed in the same list as these other sins. I think most everyone would have to agree that these things are examples of God’s great eternal moral law.  So the conclusion seems clear that the prohibition against homosexual behavior is also part of God’s eternal moral law, not the sacrificial law, or the ceremonial law, or the civil law, or the laws designed to keep Israel separate and intact.

Sexual Revolution Argument #3

Another point that some members of the LGBT community sometimes try to make is that the church is gradually maturing, sometimes over a period of centuries. And that as we mature, we leave behind some erroneous ideas we used to hold on to.

So they will say, “Christians once thought it was acceptable to own slaves. But the time came when most all of them realized that was not good, so they moved on past that notion.”

And they will say, “Christians once thought interracial marriage was wrong, but most all of them realized that it really wasn’t so  they moved on past that idea.”

So now, in the same way, they say, “Christians used to think that same sex marriage was wrong, but now we are finally beginning to realize that we were wrong, and we can move on past that idea.”

I think that that kind of thinking is just twisting things around exactly backward.

The analogy should be, “Once there were some Christians (at least they called themselves Christians)  who thought slaveholding was acceptable to God. But other Christians, who understood the Bible more clearly, showed them the sinfulness of that behavior, and eventually justifying slaveholding was abandoned.”

“In the same way, today there are some who self-identify as Christians who think that some homosexual behavior is acceptable to God. But other Christians, who understand the Bible more clearly, are helping them to see the sinfulness of that behavior, so we need to abandon the attempt to justify homosexual behavior.” That’s the better analogy.

Sexual Revolution Argument #4

Here’s another point that I have heard made.

This argument says that It would be unloving for God to require those with homosexual drives to be committed to lifelong celibacy. If God provided heterosexual marriage as an outlet for heterosexual drives, He would have also provided homosexual marriage for those with homosexual drives.

So they might say, “It’s not fair. You have heterosexual desires. And you get to have a wife.” “I have homosexual desires. So I should get to have a partner too.”

But what that kind of thinking overlooks is that there are many, many situations in life that where God expects us to resist certain desires.

There are many men who have very strong desires to have sex with women who are not their wives. God says “You have to resist that desire.”

There are people who have strong desires to have sex with kids. God says, “You have to resist that desire.”

There are people who have strong desires to get drunk or to take drugs to escape the demands that they be responsible people. God says, “You have to resist that desire.”

There are single adults who have a strong desire for heterosexual sex. God says, “You have to resist that desire.”

And the truth is that there are men who once had strong homosexual desires, but who now no longer have those desires. And some of them are married to women who are the mothers of their children.

Sexual Revolution Argument #5

Here’s another Scriptural argument that LGBT people use.

In Matthew 7, in the sermon on the mount, Jesus said:  “Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.” (Matthew 7:20) And they say, “Look at our same-sex marriages. They are producing good fruit. We are happy. We are serving society well. We are good employees. We are good citizens.”

The problem with this argument is that we don’t get to decide what is, and what is not, good fruit. God decides that.

Some adulterers seem to be, for the moment, nice, kind people, good employees, good citizens. We could probably say the same about some child molesters.

What does it really mean to produce good fruit?

Well, Jesus tells us in this same passage. next verse.

“21 ¶  “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [That’s the good fruit!] 22  On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23  And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Mt 7:21-23 ESV)

We don’t get to define what good fruit looks like. Good fruit is doing the will of the Father. And His will is revealed to us in His Word.

Sexual Revolution Argument #6

Another argument from the Bible that LGBT advocates use is also in the Sermon on the Mount.

“Judge not, that you be not judged.” (Matthew 7:1)

They might say, “Look. God deals with each of us differently. He deals with you one way. He deals with me another way. You have nothing to say about how God deals with me. When you tell me that homosexual behavior is sin, you are judging me. Jesus commands you not to do that.”

This is one of the most quoted verses in the Bible.

Well, it’s true. That verse is certainly in the Bible. So there must be some sense in which we are forbidden to judge others.

But the Bible also says:

“Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!” (1 Corinthians 6:3)

And Jesus also said, “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”” (John 7:24)

So, obviously there is some sense in which we are commanded to judge, and some sense in which we are forbidden to judge.

So obviously the word “judge” has different meanings in different contexts. That’s not unusual. That’s true of many words in both Greek and English.

In some situations, to judge might mean “to condemn to hell.”  

In other situations, it might mean “to evaluate the unspoken internal motivations of others.”

It could also mean, “to pronounce guilty.”

And sometimes it might simply mean “to make a decision about whether an action or behavior is right or wrong–to test, discern, or prove.”

I think that when practicing homosexuals tell us to “not judge them” they may be interpreting the word “judge” in that last sense. They think that Jesus is teaching that we should quit saying that their behavior is sinful.

They think that when we say that homosexual behavior is sinful we are disobeying Jesus’ command to judge not. But we know that is not what Jesus meant. We know this because there are too many other places in Scripture where we are commanded to “judge” in this sense.

Here are some more examples.

“But test everything; hold fast what is good.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

“A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.” (Matthew 7:18-20)

““And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?” (Luke 12:57)

“Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” (Romans 12:2)

“And try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:10)

“So that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,” (Philippians 1:10)

When Biblical Christians graciously and lovingly affirm that, according to the Bible, homosexual behavior is sinful behavior and therefore should not be practiced or endorsed by the state, we are simply doing our best to obey commands like these.

Sexual Revolution Argument #7

There’s one more argument that is sometimes used by LGBT people that I personally think might be their most effective argument in many of our churches.

Basically, they say, “Look, you guys have overlooked many different kinds of ongoing sin in your churches. There are members in good standing who are having sex with their girlfriends. There are people who have gotten unbiblical divorces. There are gluttons. There are people with ongoing anger problems. There are men who are addicted to pornography.. Why do you suddenly draw the line when it comes to LGBT issues? Why don’t we just live and let live?”

This is basically an accusation that the church has often not done a good job at restoring members who have fallen into sin, or if they refuse to be restored, exercising church discipline. And that is a big problem in many of our churches.

But while it may be true that we have not done as well as we should in the past, that’s not a very good reason to say, “Oh well, we’ve blown it before. we might as well blow it again.”.

I really think that most churches, if someone wanted to join and said, “By the way, I’m having sex with my girlfriend, is that ok?” or “I have a problem with porn, is that ok?” the church would not say, “Oh yeah. That’s cool. No big deal.”. They would say. “Ok. Let’s slow down some here. We need to talk. We have some issues to work through here.”

I don’t think there are many churches who would actually say that these things are no big deal.

I don’t think that there are many churches who would say to a new member, “Oh, you’re cheating on your taxes? That’s no big deal. I’m sure we have members who are doing much worse.”

Of course, in all this, we acknowledge that all of our members are sinners. All of us have, at one time or another, excused and rationalized and tried to justify our sin.

We all still fail. But our attitude toward sin must be like God’s. We hate it. We confess it as sin. We repent of it. We must never continue to just excuse it, even when we keep falling into it, over and over and over. We are totally dependent on His grace.

Summary

To summarize. we need to realize that there are many very sweet people caught up in the error of trying to justify LGBT behavior. And we need to be honest and realize that there are some situations that are very complicated and require a lot of listening, a lot of love, a lot of prayer, a lot of study, and a lot of godly counsel.

We also need to realize, with great alarm and sadness, that because there are so many wonderful people caught up in it, we are finding many of our churches being tempted to compromise God’s truth in some ways. And that makes our current hour an especially difficult time.

We must to ask God to help us be very wise, very loving, and very uncompromisingly committed to His word.

Stay in the Battle!

Steve

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Author

Steve serves as chaplain and teacher at Cross Creek Christian School in Sweetwater, TN. He previously taught math, physics, and ACT prep in public high schools in Tennessee and Texas. He has served churches in Tennessee, Florida, and Texas as minister of education, associate pastor, and senior pastor.